Air to Space

01Houston, we have a podcast.

02Welcome to the official podcast of the NASA Johnson Space Center, Episode 115, Air to Space.

03I'm Gary Jordan.

04I'll be your host today.

05If you're new to the show, we bring in the experts to talk about all different parts of human spaceflight.

06Longtime listeners of this show know that human spaceflight takes a lot of collaboration.

07Collaboration within NASA, with other space agencies, with commercial businesses, and even other parts of the U.S.

08government.

09For day-to-day space operations.

10In the case of the International Space Station, NASA works with the Department of Defense Space Surveillance Network to track objects larger than 10 centimeters in low-Earth orbit, many of which is orbital debris.

11Knowing where these objects are part of keeping the space station in a safe orbit, as well as the global positioning system, the GPS satellites that actually help to navigate the space station.

12This is just one or a few elements of what the Department of Defense does in space and how the relationship works with NASA.

13Today we have very special guests to hone in on this one branch of the military, the Air Force.

14The Air Force and NASA have a very special relationship.

15A lot of astronauts come from the Air Force, among other things.

16So we're going to break that down.

17Today we sit down with General Stephen W.

18Wilson and Colonel Nick Hegg.

19General Wilson is the Vice Chief of Staff for the U.S.

20Air Force.

21If you're unfamiliar with the hierarchy of military branches, that's really far up there.

22In this position, he assists the Chief of Staff with organizing, training, and equipping 685,000 active-duty Guard, Reserve, and civilian forces serving in the U.S.

23and overseas.

24We also sit down with Nick Hegg, U.S.

25Air Force Colonel and NASA astronaut, who landed from his 203-day stay aboard the International Space Station very recently, this October 2019.

26The two go into detail on the roles and responsibilities of the U.S.

27Air Force, how the Air Force and NASA work together, and the future in space for the Air Force, NASA, and even the future of the Space Force.

28So here we go.

29The Air Force and NASA with General Stephen Wilson and Colonel Nick Hegg.

30Enjoy.

31T-minus five seconds and counting.

32Mark.

33Longs commit light circuit.

34There she goes.

35Houston, we have a podcast.

36General Wilson and Colonel Hegg, thank you so much for coming on Houston.

37We have a podcast today.

38It's great to be here, Gary.

39Thanks.

40Pleasure.

41First, actually, Colonel Hegg, I'd like to say welcome back to Earth.

42It was not too long that you were in space for 203 days.

43How was adjusting back to Earth?

44The re-adaptation is fast.

45Oh, wow.

46You know, 10 days, and I feel almost normal again.

47The first couple days were pretty shaky, just trying to get good balance and figuring out what gravity is about again.

48But it's been nice to be home.

49Absolutely.

50Wonderful.

51It's good to have you home, and General Wilson, it's good to have you here.

52This is why we have the two of you here, Air Force and NASA together.

53Let's get right into it.

54General Wilson, if you can go over a bit of your responsibilities as Vice Chief of Staff for the Air Force, what do you do there?

55Yeah, so my job is to help our chief in three major roles.

56My chief organized, trains, and equipped 685,000 airmen who span the globe.

57So I call that just an institutional chief.

58All the services have the same, so the Army, the Navy, the Air Force, Marines have the same thing.

59He's also an international air chief, so he meets with all of his partners there to make sure we've got the right allies and partners around the globe, and that they'll be interoperable amongst our forces.

60And then he's a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff to provide the best military advice to the chairman of the SECDF as they advise the senior leadership of our nation.

61So he wears those three hats, and I help represent him in doing those duties.

62That's a great responsibility that you have there.

63That's a lot of people, 685,000 airmen, I believe?

64Yeah, so we're a big company.

65So it's a big company like IBM.

66We're about seven times the size of IBM, just to put it in scape size.

67So what does that mean to organize, train, and equip?

68What does that mean exactly?

69Yeah, so today, right now, we have to make sure all of our forces are ready.

70So we woke up as a nation and thought differently on September 10th than we did on September 12th, 2001.

71And so we've got to be ready.

72And so making sure our forces are trained to do the jobs that we ask them to do.

73Right now, I would say we defend the homeland.

74We own the high ground of air and space, and we have to be able to project combat power forward anywhere across the globe, both through global reach and global power.

75So that's what we do as an Air Force in just broad terms.

76But we also have to build the force of the future.

77So as we keep some parts of our Air Force, all of our Air Force, ready, we also have to look at what does the force of the future look like, look at the threat, look at our strategy, look at our force design, and how do we build that force.

78And so we've spent a lot of time on modernizing the force for the future that we need to have.

79Okay.

80So what are you doing in Houston this week?

81Well, it's a great outreach.

82We've got a great partnership with a big city, the fourth largest city in the country, and coming here, A, to get out of the Pentagon, and to meet some of our amazing airmen like Nick here, who have this great partnership with this wonderful place called NASA that we've been having.

83It's the United States Air Force in partnership with NASA since 1959.

84That's right.

85It is a great relationship.

86And I actually wanted to go deeper into both of your stories just to kind of get some more context and background on how this relationship comes and what it takes to be a part of these two organizations.

87Starting with you, General Wilson, I know you were commissioned from Texas A&M University in 1981, and you've had a lot of different positions in your career.

88A lot of different positions.

89My wife and I have talked.

90We've moved 21 times.

91Wow.

92Lived all over the United States, all overseas, too.

93So we've had lots of amazing jobs.

94I did go to school right up the road.

95There's a little college there at College Station at Texas A&M University.

96That's right.

97So gig them out there.

98I hope there's not too many Longhorn fans here on your podcast.

99But that's kind of what is expected as the Air Force.

100You're going to move around a bunch.

101We talk about a value proposition when you join our Air Force.

102And you get to work with amazing people and amazing technology and to do amazing things to help protect our nation.

103And so most people would say they join our Air Force because of the cool stuff, the technology, but they really stay because of the people.

104That's right.

105Now, you've stuck with the Air Force, and you've risen through the ranks.

106And it sounds like it's because of your passion for the job.

107Is that part of the reason why you stuck with it?

108I would say the passion for the people.

109Passion for the people.

110Yeah, because you get to meet these people from all across our country.

111And you go, where do we keep finding them?

112They're just so simply amazing.

113Every day you meet somebody, you go, man, I'm glad they're on our team.

114I'm glad they're helping us.

115We often have these core values in the Air Force.

116We talk about integrity first, service before self, excellence and all you can do.

117I go, but you meet these people that we didn't have to teach them that.

118They learn that around the dining room tables at their homes.

119And they're really so dedicated and inspired and passionate about helping and making a difference.

120And we get the opportunity to serve with them.

121So that's a really fun part of our job.

122I know.

123And Colonel Huy, you can probably speak to this.

124I believe that idea of teamwork and working with people is very much a part of NASA as well.

125I think it's just a good quality to have all around, to be able to work with others and appreciate others.

126Yeah, absolutely.

127You know, you look at, if I look back at my experiences in the Air Force and then I look at my time here at NASA, you can see the parallels in the workforce and its approach, the commitment to the mission.

128You know, obviously the missions are different, but just the passion that everybody approaches their job with every day, whether it's in the Air Force or whether it's here at NASA, we're doing really difficult things and we do them routinely.

129We do really dangerous things and we do them safely.

130And we do that because we work together as a team.

131And so teamwork is the lifeblood of either organization.

132It's really all about the people.

133Now, you've been a part of both.

134So tell me about your career progression going from the Air Force now to NASA.

135Yeah, so, you know, I get that question a lot.

136You know, how did you end up where you're at?

137A lot of people are interested.

138And I couldn't tell you how it happened other than I was given a lot of amazing opportunities in the Air Force that gave me the background and the experience that I could bring to NASA and add to the team here.

139You know, that started out as an acquisitions officer.

140So I was working in a lab, running a program, managing a spreadsheet.

141And some of my, you know, PhDs that worked for me, you know, were much brighter than I was.

142And, you know, from there, getting involved with flight tests and being able to teach at the academy or getting exposure in Washington, D.C.

143and seeing how these complex organizations work and get things done.

144Those were all opportunities that, you know, I may not have actually been looking for them, but the Air Force presented them to me and they were amazing.

145And, you know, that gave me the background to really figure out who I was and what my passion was.

146I enjoy working with really technical, complicated things.

147But something that I enjoy more is doing that in a, you know, in a team under a pressure situation.

148And there's, you know, NASA, if you want to do that, that's, it's a place where you can find that exact challenge.

149Very much so.

150Now, this is just one career path.

151Now, General Wilson, I know there's a lot of different areas that you can explore in the Air Force.

152Just in general, a lot of different skills and backgrounds that are a part of this giant team.

153Yeah, you name it, we probably have it in our Air Force.

154Everything from public affairs officers and finance officers and communicators and maintainers and aviators and intel officers and special warfare airmen.

155I mean, you name it, we probably have it in our Air Force.

156That's amazing.

157So let's get into the nitty gritty.

158I like to do this as part of the podcast is get really into the details.

159We talked about organizing training and equipping the Air Force.

160What are, what is a typical day like for you, General Wilson, leading these teams and overseeing all of this?

161Maybe you don't have a typical day.

162I don't have, there's no such thing as a typical day.

163I laugh because many days my schedule will change multiple times during the day.

164I would say I spend a lot of time in the Pentagon and we spend time with my counterparts and the other services.

165And we talk through what's our strategy going forward.

166Have we, have we got the right, we're all fighting for resources.

167Do I got the right resources?

168And not only do I have the right resources, are we spending them in the right ways?

169We're stewards of American taxpayer money and we want to get, make sure we get the best bang for the buck out of everything we spent.

170So that as we look to the future, are we designing the right force with the right equipment?

171And again, I'll tell you, we're spending a lot of time on the most important weapon system we have in the United States Air Force.

172Our people.

173There you go.

174Yeah.

175And so what are we doing to make sure that they've got the right education, the right training, the right experience?

176They're confident and proud of what they do and personally and professionally fulfilled.

177Right.

178And if we do that, we have mission success.

179We have people that are, enjoy what they're doing and enjoy being a part of an amazing team that Nick just talked about.

180One of the things we don't talk enough about, just because we have it here is, you know, Nick's wife is also in the Air Force.

181That's right.

182And so our family members also serve.

183Lots of them.

184And we move our family and kids around a lot.

185And they also serve incredibly for our nation.

186And we don't ever thank them enough for all that they do, helping support us along the way.

187I know you had a lot of moves with your family.

188Now, I'm sure the Air Force accommodates that.

189Nick, I'm sure you are encountering the same things, moving around and dealing with all of the locations.

190Yeah.

191You know, Katie and I haven't moved 21 times.

192We've moved just under 10.

193But we've, you know, it's been a challenge.

194But one of the things that makes it is, one of the things that makes the sacrifice worth it is that you understand what you're, you know, what are you trying to accomplish?

195What are you really doing with your life?

196And, you know, for us, we've made the decision that we wanted to be part of something bigger.

197We wanted to spend our lives helping others.

198And there's, you know, the Air Force is a great way to do that.

199And it's given us so many opportunities together.

200It's been fun to just watch Katie, you know, thrive and rise up in the ranks in the Air Force and do what she does so amazingly well.

201And so I feel fortunate to be able to be, you know, the spouse at times, but then also the service member at times.

202And it's been a heck of a ride.

203Yeah.

204Tell me more about the life in the Air Force and how that translates to NASA because you've been a part of both.

205What was it like being part of the Air Force and then taking those same values, those same skills over to NASA?

206Yeah.

207It really translates really well.

208You know, we, you know, I just got back from a long duration mission.

209That's right.

210So I was deployed for seven months, essentially.

211And we've done deployments together before.

212You know, I've stayed back and she's deployed for a year to Iraq.

213Or we've both, you know, deployed to the Middle East.

214And so we've had those experiences.

215And I think that we learned some essential skills in terms of resiliency as a family and being able to make sure that the family can thrive in that kind of situation.

216And that when you come back, you're very sober about the challenges of reintegrating as a family and the things that you need to do over the short term and the long term to continue to have a healthy family.

217And so all of those skills we picked up along the way, you know, through the service in the Air Force.

218And that has been invaluable in terms of being here at NASA and being able to do what I've done.

219Now, General Wilson, I know earlier today you were at Space Center Houston and you gave a presentation.

220Next to you were a lot of different people.

221We talked about disciplines across the Air Force.

222You had a flight surgeon.

223You had a couple of people that were engineers, flight surgeons, rescue pilot, and then two astronauts.

224That's right.

225Yeah.

226That's kind of a microcosm of our Air Force, right?

227Yeah.

228They do lots of different things in it.

229That's right.

230So I'm sure, you know, you've had a chance even throughout the day to talk with some of the airmen, some of the NASA astronauts that are also part of the Air Force.

231So can you tell me about the qualities of the Air Force and what the Air Force is doing to help provide, you know, just like Nick here, Air Force airmen into NASA astronauts?

232Yeah.

233So as you see, every one of those who are sitting on the panel are pretty exceptional, right?

234Very much so.

235So here's a payload engineer who's designing satellites that are going to help move forward in terms of health and medicine on some of his experiments, right?

236Then you have a flight surgeon who's there to make sure the whole team stays as healthy as they can be.

237And what are the things that I need to be looking at for long duration space flight?

238But I would say that's a microcosm of our force, right?

239We've got some really incredible people.

240They're really passionate about service.

241They're passionate about making a difference.

242And they see this great relationship.

243So they have it in the Air Force, and they look at a place like NASA and say, I can make a difference there, too.

244And so they may have an assignment or two here at NASA, and they may come back to the Air Force.

245You know, it's – but that's a microcosm of what we've got going on all over.

246Yeah, just a broad range of skills.

247There's a lot of interconnections with the Air Force and NASA.

248How are we working together to actually – you know, we talk about the Air Force.

249We're managing space.

250There's a lot of different directives and goals of the Air Force.

251Where do those cross over with the – Well, let's just take – so, you know, we're talking to astronauts, but we do – we're in the launch business.

252So we do lots of things in launch, but whether it be your tracking, whether it be operations, whether it be maintaining the satellites, or whether you're going to do a recovery of the astronauts, right?

253Your Air Force is involved in all of those.

254You know, and most people – let's just take space, right?

255And there's a lot of discussion going on in space, and we would take there – most of the world doesn't realize that how dependent not only our national security is, our – certainly our U.S.

256economy, and all the scientific research and endeavor that happens because of space.

257That today that, you know, this little constellation of things, GPS, and how dependent we are as a nation from the financial system to every ATM machine to cash registers around the country to all the navigation and timing and positioning that happens because of GPS.

258And that's a global utility being run by the United States Air Force by – honestly, today on crew, there's a small number of people that run that global utility for billions of people.

259Wow.

260Yeah.

261That's what your Air Force does.

262Yeah.

263But so, yes, we have some astronauts here with NASA, but we're also, again, in the launch business, the tracking telemetry business.

264We're in the communication business and recovery business.

265And the people business.

266I love that theme.

267The people – it's all about those people.

268Nick, you going from the Air Force, you just mentioned you recently landed from space.

269It's fresh on your mind.

270And what values from the Air Force did you take with you to space?

271Yeah.

272You know, I touched on the sense of being able to work together as a team, the sense that, you know, our accomplishments, our shared accomplishments, and, you know, everything that we're doing.

273It's not just the six of us that are on board the space station, but it's the team of 100,000 people spread around the globe from, you know, countries across the globe that are making that magic happen.

274And that's, you know, that appreciation, I think, is probably the strongest thing that you – that I took with me from my time in the Air Force.

275And, you know, and, sir, I've – you know, I'll pile on a little bit.

276The, you know, human space exploration doesn't happen without what airmen bring to the fight, if you will.

277You know, we're up there.

278We mentioned GPS.

279The space station flies through space, and it determines its position and orientation based off GPS.

280You know, the search and rescue crews are going to be there to support when we start launching out of Florida here real soon, and that's going to be an exciting time.

281All of our, you know, supply cargo vehicles, you know, a lot of them are coming out of the U.S., and we're providing the range support for that.

282So airmen make the human exploration of space possible, and that's only going to be stronger in terms of support that we're going to need to make Artemis happen, to get back to the moon in five years, and then to continue to push on to Mars.

283So this relationship, it's, you know, it's a very – you know, you see it as – I see it as kind of this symbiotic relationship.

284You know, we help each other.

285You know, I grew up in the Air Force, and now I'm working at NASA.

286Yeah.

287And you have the ability to go back and forth, and it's just a really special relationship that we have.

288Yeah.

289It goes back to 1959.

290So we've been partnering with NASA since 1959.

291That's right.

292Yeah, it's very much interwoven, and it takes a partnership.

293We see it all the time.

294We talk about our international partners, but there's domestic partners too, and the Air Force is a big part of, like you said, continuous space operations.

295That's a big part of it.

296Now, you did make that transition.

297Can you tell me about the application process from going from the Air Force to NASA?

298So I guess the first piece of advice is if you don't get selected, try, try again.

299Yeah.

300So it took me three applications and a decade of applying in order to get accepted.

301It's one of those things where you don't grow up, you know, with the end goal, the only goal, the sole goal, the passion is to become an astronaut.

302You grow up having a passion to do something else, and then in pursuing that, you realize that, hey, you know, I'd also like, you know, I've got this childhood dream or I've got this dream of becoming an astronaut.

303Everybody that gets selected to be an astronaut has had a career doing something else before, and they've done it successfully.

304And the reason that they're successful is those careers are based on this passion that they have.

305So when people are looking at, you know, how do I do that job one day, the key to how do you do the astronaut job one day is that you find that passion that you have, and you just pursue it relentlessly.

306And then as you pursue that, you're going to do the best that you can possibly do, and that'll make your chances for being selected to fly in space or to make it to space someday the highest they possibly can be because they're infinitesimally small.

307But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't stop dreaming about it and stop working hard to try to make it happen.

308It's true.

309That passion maybe is for the job, but maybe it's for the work itself as well.

310It's for doing the best that you can do wherever you're doing your job.

311Absolutely.

312You know, we talk about that being kind of the keys to success for anybody, right, to be excellent at whatever we ask you to do, to be the leader wherever you are because there's always more work to do, and you find those young leaders who take the initiative to make every place better.

313And then I say the third piece is to be ready because we don't know what's going to happen, and we need to be ready for opportunity when it strikes or be ready to be prepared for that unforeseen event.

314I think ready for the future, too.

315I think a large reason why you're here is we're thinking about that next generation.

316We're thinking about, you know, who's going to be coming on board next, and we want to prepare them.

317We want to make sure that they're ready.

318What is the future of the Air Force and of NASA, really?

319What are we looking forward to here?

320Well, let's talk a little bit about space because we're here in the middle of the world of space.

321You can just see the excitement that's happening really all around the kitchen tables across America of this where we're going with space and the importance of space.

322And every place I go, I get people that are excited about this opportunity.

323And where you say the sky's the limit, I go, there is no limit.

324Look, I kind of feel like we've gone back, you know, about 100 years, right, in the early 1910s, 1920s as air power has just come on board.

325People, you know, didn't realize what it would do.

326Who knew that we'd be able to fly airplanes around the globe and the spots and the speeds that we have.

327And now I think people are looking at that same thing for space, right?

328We did it 50 years ago, right?

329We had President Kennedy on May 25, 61, say, we're going to go to the moon and back, right?

330And we're going to get there within a decade.

331And in 1969, we did.

332And along the way, 36 launches between the Mercury, Gemini, Apollo programs, some spectacular successes.

333We also had some setbacks and failures, but we were relentless as a nation to get there.

334And I think there's that same excitement now where people see this possibility of where we're going in space.

335And, you know, you hear about companies putting up thousands of satellites and constellations, you know, on a global Internet and the different sensors around the globe and how we'll do that.

336And to the moon and Mars programs.

337And I think there's just a lot of excitement about this potential that's continuing to open up right now before us.

338That's right.

339So where are the opportunities?

340What are we looking forward to?

341What kinds of jobs, experiences, people are we looking for to get involved in space in the Air Force?

342Yes, all of that.

343Because I really I think we don't know yet.

344Right.

345But I think just as Nick kind of talked about, you look at there's a couple of people on the International Space Station, but there's, you know, 100,000 that support them.

346I'd say the same thing's true across here.

347Right.

348I'm going to need people that understand how to work budgets.

349I'm going to need people that know how to tell the story.

350I'm going to need people to know how to design new satellites, new sensors.

351I need people who understand how to do architectures and connect them.

352I'm going to need all of that.

353Yes.

354But, you know, the space, you know, what we say in the military is if we lose space, we lose.

355Hmm.

356Right.

357It's that important.

358As a joint force, we are totally reliant on space and the potential there.

359That's right.

360There's a lot of potential.

361I remember even during the panel, there was someone, I think it was the engineer, who was doing experiments on the space station.

362We're looking at those next possibilities.

363I don't know if you actually worked on any of those, Nick, or, I mean, just experiments in general.

364That was a big part of your job up in space.

365Yeah.

366I mean, the mission of the space station is science.

367And a lot of what we're doing up there is trying to just answer questions about so that we know more about ourselves and the universe around us.

368But it was fun to see the influx of experiments that were tech demonstrations that were proving out systems that we were trying to downselect for to get back to the moon and figure out how we're going to develop the technology we need for the Artemis program.

369It's one of those things, and I'll just circle back to the, you know, who are we looking for?

370So I'm an example of, you know, the transition from the Air Force.

371And so I'd like to put a plug out there for, you know, all the airmen that are interested in space.

372You don't have to be a test pilot to become an astronaut.

373And we're looking for people that are passionate and have been successful and really have the drive to contribute to what we're going to do.

374And so, you know, as we look for the, you know, eventually the next class that's going to join us or the people that we're going to end up sending to the moon or to Mars, if you're out there and you're interested, I can't think of a more exciting time to be a part of this than right now with everything that's going on.

375Yeah.

376General Wilson, it sounds like you're saying the same thing.

377This is just an exciting time.

378And with that breadth of experiences, the theme that I'm getting from both of you is really just it doesn't matter if you're focusing on anything in particular, just whatever is the most passionate thing, whatever you can really dive yourself into.

379That's what really you should focus on.

380And there are opportunities.

381There's some amazing opportunities.

382And I think we don't even I can't explain what they are because I don't know what they are.

383But I just I see what this I see what the potential could be.

384And I see where we're growing as not only in our Air Force in the space world, but, you know, that we've stood up a new combatant command for space.

385So General Raymond is now the 11th combatant commander for U.S.

386combatant commander at U.S.

387Space Command.

388And the president has put forward legislation that put forward a proposal to have a sixth branch of the armed forces of the U.S.

389Space Force.

390And that's now being talked about in Congress.

391And we're hoping that will come out here in this National Defense Authorization Act to be released this year.

392But we're working hard with Congress for this new sixth branch of the military, the U.S.

393Space Force.

394Wow.

395This is definitely an exciting time.

396And it seems like a time where there are abundant opportunities.

397General Wilson and Colonel Haig, thank you so much for coming on Houston.

398We have a podcast today and talking about the Air Force, space and all of the opportunities we have in the near future.

399Really appreciate your time.

400Thank you, Gary.

401Thank you.

402Thank you.

403Thank you, John.

404I have to bring your energy.

405Not because they are easy, but because they are hard.

406Never keep you stupid.

407Welcome to space.

408Hey, thanks for sticking around.

409Really enjoyed this conversation with General Wilson and Colonel Haig today.

410It was one of many conversations that we have with people outside of NASA.

411So you can check out some of the other things we've done on NASA.gov slash podcast.

412You can find our podcast there as well as the many other podcasts that are out for any topic that you really want to dive into.

413Planetary science.

414I know On a Mission just recently started their second series.

415You should go check them out.

416That's all NASA.gov slash podcast.

417Nick Haig is on social media on Twitter.

418You can follow him at Astro Haig.

419Otherwise, you can see what's going on in the International Space Station right now at NASA.gov slash ISS.

420You can follow us on social media.

421We're on the International Space Station.

422The Houston We Have a Podcast is part of the NASA Johnson Space Center pages of Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.

423Use the hashtag AskNASA on your favorite platform to submit an idea for the show or a question.

424Just make sure to mention it's for Houston We Have a Podcast.

425This episode was recorded on October 16th, 2019.

426Thanks to Alex Perryman, Pat Ryan, Norm Moran, Belinda Polito, Greg Wiseman, and special thanks to Colonel Katie Haig for helping to put this all together.

427And thanks again to General Wilson and Colonel Haig for coming on the show.

428We'll be back next week.